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	Comments on: Dominion: How Has It Aged?	</title>
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	<description>Games with a bite</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 14 Dec 2020 18:28:40 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: Nick Murray		</title>
		<link>https://bitewinggames.com/dominion-how-has-it-aged/#comment-63</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nick Murray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Dec 2020 18:28:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://bitewinggames.com/?p=1211#comment-63</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://bitewinggames.com/dominion-how-has-it-aged/#comment-62&quot;&gt;Erik Johnson&lt;/a&gt;.

Great points!  I&#039;m crossing my fingers for more Fort content (perhaps a 2021 expansion?).

In the meantime, you should check out Undaunted!  It&#039;s one of my favorite options as far as interactive, engaging deck-builders go.  I&#039;m not even much of a war/skirmish gaming person, but Undaunted really hits the spot as a tense, juicy 2 player game.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://bitewinggames.com/dominion-how-has-it-aged/#comment-62">Erik Johnson</a>.</p>
<p>Great points!  I&#8217;m crossing my fingers for more Fort content (perhaps a 2021 expansion?).</p>
<p>In the meantime, you should check out Undaunted!  It&#8217;s one of my favorite options as far as interactive, engaging deck-builders go.  I&#8217;m not even much of a war/skirmish gaming person, but Undaunted really hits the spot as a tense, juicy 2 player game.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Erik Johnson		</title>
		<link>https://bitewinggames.com/dominion-how-has-it-aged/#comment-62</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Erik Johnson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Dec 2020 17:46:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://bitewinggames.com/?p=1211#comment-62</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I absolutely agree with points that both of you are making. I had the opportunity to play Fort, and it stood-out for the fact that I was engaged with every single person&#039;s turn. That has not often been my experience with deck-builders. Dominion has always felt the least interactive to me, despite a few attack and defense cards. Somewhere in the middle are games like Clank!, where the person&#039;s movement through the dungeon matters to me, but I&#039;m not so much paying attention to what cards the person is buying or playing. On the other end is Fort, where I&#039;m watching to see what other people are buying because it will influence my own purchase choices (far more so than in Dominion where *maybe* cards they buy will impact me, but mostly I&#039;m just keeping an eye on when the VP cards are being bought due to timing the end game), the cards they are playing because of my ability to perform follow actions, and even the cards that they *aren&#039;t* playing because I can potentially poach them for my own benefit. Head &#038; shoulders above my other deck-builder experiences, and more players only created more interactions, not simply more downtime. On the other hand, the customizability of Dominion really does shine. Fort will be the same theme and flavor every time. With Dominion I can roll deep with Prosperity, eke it out gritty style with Dark Ages, or turn a ton of knobs for dialing-in an appropriate complexity (base game versus cards from Dark Ages, Adventures, Empires...), or tweak the level of interaction from some down to next-to-nothing, for example if playing with someone who has the most fun optimizing their little engine and would be upset by an attack card.

The aforementioned games are all clearly deck-builders at their core, which is something that I enjoy a great deal. Going off in another direction are games like Tyrants of the Underdark, which left me scratching my head why people loved its deck-building aspects so much. To me that one felt like it was a highly interactive area control game, with a deck-building component tacked-on; when I&#039;ve played we really weren&#039;t able to cycle our decks very much, so most purchased cards were never seen again. As a deck-builder fan it was an unsatisfying game. But for people who love the give &#038; take of an area control game it would be a really great option for them. But, if someone really really enjoys deck-building as a game mechanic and was trying to choose between Dominion and Tyrants, I would actually recommend Dominion to them since it will have more of what they purportedly enjoy. As Stephen said, &quot;It still provides a very pure deck building experience.&quot; But if given a wider playing field of choices then I&#039;d recommend Fort...UNLESS the person really wanted to invest in the numerous expansions in order to attain that fine-tuned control of their game, in which case Dominion holds the crown...but it&#039;s going to cost in order to pick-up all those expansions.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I absolutely agree with points that both of you are making. I had the opportunity to play Fort, and it stood-out for the fact that I was engaged with every single person&#8217;s turn. That has not often been my experience with deck-builders. Dominion has always felt the least interactive to me, despite a few attack and defense cards. Somewhere in the middle are games like Clank!, where the person&#8217;s movement through the dungeon matters to me, but I&#8217;m not so much paying attention to what cards the person is buying or playing. On the other end is Fort, where I&#8217;m watching to see what other people are buying because it will influence my own purchase choices (far more so than in Dominion where *maybe* cards they buy will impact me, but mostly I&#8217;m just keeping an eye on when the VP cards are being bought due to timing the end game), the cards they are playing because of my ability to perform follow actions, and even the cards that they *aren&#8217;t* playing because I can potentially poach them for my own benefit. Head &amp; shoulders above my other deck-builder experiences, and more players only created more interactions, not simply more downtime. On the other hand, the customizability of Dominion really does shine. Fort will be the same theme and flavor every time. With Dominion I can roll deep with Prosperity, eke it out gritty style with Dark Ages, or turn a ton of knobs for dialing-in an appropriate complexity (base game versus cards from Dark Ages, Adventures, Empires&#8230;), or tweak the level of interaction from some down to next-to-nothing, for example if playing with someone who has the most fun optimizing their little engine and would be upset by an attack card.</p>
<p>The aforementioned games are all clearly deck-builders at their core, which is something that I enjoy a great deal. Going off in another direction are games like Tyrants of the Underdark, which left me scratching my head why people loved its deck-building aspects so much. To me that one felt like it was a highly interactive area control game, with a deck-building component tacked-on; when I&#8217;ve played we really weren&#8217;t able to cycle our decks very much, so most purchased cards were never seen again. As a deck-builder fan it was an unsatisfying game. But for people who love the give &amp; take of an area control game it would be a really great option for them. But, if someone really really enjoys deck-building as a game mechanic and was trying to choose between Dominion and Tyrants, I would actually recommend Dominion to them since it will have more of what they purportedly enjoy. As Stephen said, &#8220;It still provides a very pure deck building experience.&#8221; But if given a wider playing field of choices then I&#8217;d recommend Fort&#8230;UNLESS the person really wanted to invest in the numerous expansions in order to attain that fine-tuned control of their game, in which case Dominion holds the crown&#8230;but it&#8217;s going to cost in order to pick-up all those expansions.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Nick Murray		</title>
		<link>https://bitewinggames.com/dominion-how-has-it-aged/#comment-55</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nick Murray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Nov 2020 04:23:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://bitewinggames.com/?p=1211#comment-55</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://bitewinggames.com/dominion-how-has-it-aged/#comment-54&quot;&gt;Stephen Thompson&lt;/a&gt;.

Hey no worries, I really appreciate all the points you made.  I think I sometimes tend to be unfair towards a game (leaving out some of the less interesting but notable strengths) whenever I’m trying to make an overall judgment or point.  So your thoughts are valuable.

Fort is a great game that will subvert your expectations of a common deck builder.  But for people who go into it wanting the usual, I could see them coming away disappointed.  In my mind, Fort feels like an awesome filler game for hobbyist gamers.  If you want a meaty experience, look elsewhere, but if you want something fresh, quick, and engaging, then Fort really hits the spot.  Hope you get to try it sometime soon!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://bitewinggames.com/dominion-how-has-it-aged/#comment-54">Stephen Thompson</a>.</p>
<p>Hey no worries, I really appreciate all the points you made.  I think I sometimes tend to be unfair towards a game (leaving out some of the less interesting but notable strengths) whenever I’m trying to make an overall judgment or point.  So your thoughts are valuable.</p>
<p>Fort is a great game that will subvert your expectations of a common deck builder.  But for people who go into it wanting the usual, I could see them coming away disappointed.  In my mind, Fort feels like an awesome filler game for hobbyist gamers.  If you want a meaty experience, look elsewhere, but if you want something fresh, quick, and engaging, then Fort really hits the spot.  Hope you get to try it sometime soon!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Stephen Thompson		</title>
		<link>https://bitewinggames.com/dominion-how-has-it-aged/#comment-54</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Stephen Thompson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Nov 2020 02:18:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://bitewinggames.com/?p=1211#comment-54</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Hi Nick, thanks for your response.  In rereading my comment, I realized I sounded a little over-zealous in my defense of Dominion.  I agree with you that there are better games out there that scratch the same itch, so to speak, yet provide deeper and a more satisfying overall play experience.  I really want to play Fort.  I&#039;ve heard so many great things about it.  One of the things I&#039;ve noticed about some games that claim to be a deckbuilder (in addition to other things) is that the deck building component is often too light for me.  Fort seems like it might be guilty of this, but I&#039;m looking forward to other game mechanics in Fort.  Sometimes a game will only allow you to get 6-10 cards going in a &quot;deck&quot;, and I&#039;d like to have more.  I like to play Dominion from time to time because I think it still provides a very pure deck building experience.  Thanks again for your article and your thoughtful response to my comment.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Nick, thanks for your response.  In rereading my comment, I realized I sounded a little over-zealous in my defense of Dominion.  I agree with you that there are better games out there that scratch the same itch, so to speak, yet provide deeper and a more satisfying overall play experience.  I really want to play Fort.  I&#8217;ve heard so many great things about it.  One of the things I&#8217;ve noticed about some games that claim to be a deckbuilder (in addition to other things) is that the deck building component is often too light for me.  Fort seems like it might be guilty of this, but I&#8217;m looking forward to other game mechanics in Fort.  Sometimes a game will only allow you to get 6-10 cards going in a &#8220;deck&#8221;, and I&#8217;d like to have more.  I like to play Dominion from time to time because I think it still provides a very pure deck building experience.  Thanks again for your article and your thoughtful response to my comment.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Nick Murray		</title>
		<link>https://bitewinggames.com/dominion-how-has-it-aged/#comment-52</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nick Murray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Oct 2020 15:46:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://bitewinggames.com/?p=1211#comment-52</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://bitewinggames.com/dominion-how-has-it-aged/#comment-51&quot;&gt;Stephen Thompson&lt;/a&gt;.

I like the Lego analogy!  I agree, that’s a killer feature of Dominion for people who enjoy investing in a system to see how deep the well goes.  I know for some folks (myself included), it’s hard to justify a $20-40 expansion for a game I’ve already played to death when the same money can acquire a brand new game with positive reviews, a better production, and a unique spin on the genre (such as Fort).

Dominion certainly has some interaction, but it’s always felt shallow to me compared to other games that were designed to be interactive from the ground up.  To be a bit over-reductive, most of Dominion’s interaction leads to “I occasionally force you to take a bad card, lose a good card, and/or buy a few different cards than you had planned.”  This carries less longevity and interest for me, but it really comes down to what you are looking for in a deck builder.

But you make some great counterpoints that I think will really help people know if Dominion is a good fit for them.  Thanks for sharing, Stephen!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://bitewinggames.com/dominion-how-has-it-aged/#comment-51">Stephen Thompson</a>.</p>
<p>I like the Lego analogy!  I agree, that’s a killer feature of Dominion for people who enjoy investing in a system to see how deep the well goes.  I know for some folks (myself included), it’s hard to justify a $20-40 expansion for a game I’ve already played to death when the same money can acquire a brand new game with positive reviews, a better production, and a unique spin on the genre (such as Fort).</p>
<p>Dominion certainly has some interaction, but it’s always felt shallow to me compared to other games that were designed to be interactive from the ground up.  To be a bit over-reductive, most of Dominion’s interaction leads to “I occasionally force you to take a bad card, lose a good card, and/or buy a few different cards than you had planned.”  This carries less longevity and interest for me, but it really comes down to what you are looking for in a deck builder.</p>
<p>But you make some great counterpoints that I think will really help people know if Dominion is a good fit for them.  Thanks for sharing, Stephen!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Stephen Thompson		</title>
		<link>https://bitewinggames.com/dominion-how-has-it-aged/#comment-51</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Stephen Thompson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Oct 2020 14:21:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://bitewinggames.com/?p=1211#comment-51</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Great retrospective of Dominion and games influenced by Dominion.  I agree with many of your comments regarding Dominion and the advantages offered by some of the newer games.  I disagree with you on a couple of points, and I think there are some advantages that only Dominion offers today that you missed.

1.  &quot;Some games like Dominion choose to turn players into cogs of a system...&quot;  I disagree with this.  All games have a system or &quot;path&quot; that you&#039;re trying to forge, and this path often changes based on what other players are doing.  You can view this as “cogs in a system” for any game.  Other games may have more player interaction, but that doesn&#039;t mean Dominion alone is turning players into cogs.  With or without player interaction, there&#039;s a path (or system of cogs) that you&#039;re trying to forge in a game.  I would argue this is not unique to Dominion and is not a negative (at least in my opinion).  

2.  Near the end of your article, you mention that Dominion is &quot;suitable for a robot who scans the starting market of cards, processes the best route to victory, and executes the strategy without a worry for external factors.&quot;  I disagree with this.  Think about the Pirate Ship card.  Players who get this card play it as an attack card and force another player to trash money from their deck.  There are ways to avoid it.  For example, if Conspirator is available, you can eschew money by purchasing multiple Conspirator cards (+2 money).  Once you&#039;ve played 3 or more action cards, you get +1 Card &#038; +1 Action, making it possible to play any other Conspirator cards that come up.  The effects of Pirate Ship are essentially nullified because you no longer need to have money in your deck.  In fact, with this response, a player who attacks you with Pirate Ship is actually helping you to cull your deck.  

This is a response to someone else choosing to use Pirate Ship as part of their strategy.  This strategy / counter-strategy is core to Dominion, and I don&#039;t see it as being any different than responding to another player&#039;s strategy in The Quest for El Dorado when you cut off another player who&#039;s advancing on your position.  

One of the things I really like about Dominion is the way you can mold it to your mood.  All of the other games you mentioned are basically static, in a sense.  Don’t take this too literally.  What I mean is that there are a certain number of paths given a set of starting cards and goals, so an extent.  This may be a problem with me and the way I look at games.  I always want my favorite games to be more than they are.  Once I&#039;ve played them out, I want more.  That&#039;s the problem.  

You mentioned Wingspan and I love that game, but based on any given set of cards and goals, I have a pretty good idea what I need to do to win.  That&#039;s never the case with Dominion.  I can choose to include certain expansions or not, and the game is infinitely &quot;mold-able&quot; into whatever mood I&#039;m in.  To me, this is more than just a “different set of randomized Kingdom cards.”  You can literally mold the feel of the game and the nature of interactions.  

If I want magic and potions, I can include the Alchemy expansion and focus a game around that plus one or more other expansions.  If I want to provide special ability when cards are gained/bought, then I can include cards from Hinterlands.  And the possibilities go on and on.  The expansions of Dominion offer an almost infinite set of Lego “parts” that players can put together to create the game they want to play.  With this “Lego feature” of Dominion, I can always get to the &quot;more&quot; that I&#039;m looking for, even though I&#039;ve been playing the game for years.  No other game offers that.  All other games have limits.  Dominion literally has no limits.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great retrospective of Dominion and games influenced by Dominion.  I agree with many of your comments regarding Dominion and the advantages offered by some of the newer games.  I disagree with you on a couple of points, and I think there are some advantages that only Dominion offers today that you missed.</p>
<p>1.  &#8220;Some games like Dominion choose to turn players into cogs of a system&#8230;&#8221;  I disagree with this.  All games have a system or &#8220;path&#8221; that you&#8217;re trying to forge, and this path often changes based on what other players are doing.  You can view this as “cogs in a system” for any game.  Other games may have more player interaction, but that doesn&#8217;t mean Dominion alone is turning players into cogs.  With or without player interaction, there&#8217;s a path (or system of cogs) that you&#8217;re trying to forge in a game.  I would argue this is not unique to Dominion and is not a negative (at least in my opinion).  </p>
<p>2.  Near the end of your article, you mention that Dominion is &#8220;suitable for a robot who scans the starting market of cards, processes the best route to victory, and executes the strategy without a worry for external factors.&#8221;  I disagree with this.  Think about the Pirate Ship card.  Players who get this card play it as an attack card and force another player to trash money from their deck.  There are ways to avoid it.  For example, if Conspirator is available, you can eschew money by purchasing multiple Conspirator cards (+2 money).  Once you&#8217;ve played 3 or more action cards, you get +1 Card &amp; +1 Action, making it possible to play any other Conspirator cards that come up.  The effects of Pirate Ship are essentially nullified because you no longer need to have money in your deck.  In fact, with this response, a player who attacks you with Pirate Ship is actually helping you to cull your deck.  </p>
<p>This is a response to someone else choosing to use Pirate Ship as part of their strategy.  This strategy / counter-strategy is core to Dominion, and I don&#8217;t see it as being any different than responding to another player&#8217;s strategy in The Quest for El Dorado when you cut off another player who&#8217;s advancing on your position.  </p>
<p>One of the things I really like about Dominion is the way you can mold it to your mood.  All of the other games you mentioned are basically static, in a sense.  Don’t take this too literally.  What I mean is that there are a certain number of paths given a set of starting cards and goals, so an extent.  This may be a problem with me and the way I look at games.  I always want my favorite games to be more than they are.  Once I&#8217;ve played them out, I want more.  That&#8217;s the problem.  </p>
<p>You mentioned Wingspan and I love that game, but based on any given set of cards and goals, I have a pretty good idea what I need to do to win.  That&#8217;s never the case with Dominion.  I can choose to include certain expansions or not, and the game is infinitely &#8220;mold-able&#8221; into whatever mood I&#8217;m in.  To me, this is more than just a “different set of randomized Kingdom cards.”  You can literally mold the feel of the game and the nature of interactions.  </p>
<p>If I want magic and potions, I can include the Alchemy expansion and focus a game around that plus one or more other expansions.  If I want to provide special ability when cards are gained/bought, then I can include cards from Hinterlands.  And the possibilities go on and on.  The expansions of Dominion offer an almost infinite set of Lego “parts” that players can put together to create the game they want to play.  With this “Lego feature” of Dominion, I can always get to the &#8220;more&#8221; that I&#8217;m looking for, even though I&#8217;ve been playing the game for years.  No other game offers that.  All other games have limits.  Dominion literally has no limits.</p>
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